Censorship at Quora on a MGTOW Question

Some time ago I answered the following question at Quora.

What do feminists think of men going their own way (MGTOW)?

My answer can be found on the site at https://www.quora.com/What-do-feminists-think-of-men-going-their-own-way-MGTOW/answer/Peter-Gregory-Kelly

The question had been on the Quora site for some time and getting quite a few upvotes. Then a few days ago I received 2 emails from Quora.

Quora2

Quora

I had the option of appealing either by submitting my answer and claiming it is not in violation of Quora’s policies or by editing my answer. It needed an edit to iron out some typos and improve on points which needed to be better expressed so I edited my answer and appealed. Their reply was thus:

Quora Moderation reviewed and rejected your appeal regarding your answer to: What do feminists think of men going their own way (MGTOW)? This decision cannot be appealed. Learn more about Quora’s policies here. Mon

Quora did not email me their rejection of my appeal. It was only posted as a notification on the site. Nowhere does Quora specify WHAT was in violation of their TOS.

My edited and improved answer below.

I was MGTOW before the term existed. It is a rational course to take and one that presents itself as the most sane.

We live in a time favouring hypergamy. This is the tendency of women to favour male partners at or above their social and educational level. In recent decades we have seen women occupy most positions at tertiary educational institutions. This is all very good for the women but it creates a situation
where many women can not necessarily be matched. This is sad but true. Nothing to do about this.

The effect on men however is also tragic. This is lead to competition for fewer females at their level. Ordinarily this would be healthy for the women except many women will be left out at the end. A female doctor is not going to marry a male labourer. Thus we see an increase in biologically unsuccessful men. Unsuccessful in luring women through no fault of their own except to be in the wrong percentile. The reaction to this frustration can be anger or depression and related problems. The reaction of helpers like therapists is to “skill up” these men. Better communication skills, becoming better men, learning to please women etc. That is fine in the micro but will fail in the macro. Imagine an effort to increase the number of people with above average intelligence. While such an effort may increase the intelligence of people the project will fail by definition because “average” moves up.

It is easy to see with partnering that if 80% of women want 20% of men, that with any improvement in the desirability of unmatched men to women that what is a “good man” will be redefined to restore the 80/20 split. This is especially true in the area of education where men can not now attain an education sufficient to satisfy the shopping list requirements of most women.

The dilemma is that women want equality with men in the macro but they also want superior men to themselves as life partners in the mcro. This is how the slight dimorphism of homo sapiens plays out. it’s biology and there is nothing that can be done about it.

The result will be “blame the victim”, shaming of men into relationships with women is only adding to the problems of men. More depression, anger and more suicide. Men presently have a suicide rate 4 X that of women and for this the reaction is to “blame the victim”. “Man up”, “suck it up”, “Peter Pan”, “Man Child”, “Basement Man”, “Suck It Up”, “Commitment Phobia” and “GrowUp” etc and no empathy. At most, what is wanted is to change men and upskill them in this therapist’s fool’s errand described above. Workable for the male at the micro individual but fails to capture the bigger picture in the macro.

MGTOW takes away the negative effects of this undue male on male competition and all the bad effects flowing from that. Effects which take a toll on even successful males as they must work harder to provide and satisfy the hypergamy hunger of their partner, least a better proposition, in the form of a “better” male makes his presence known, leaving said man without his assets, his children and a bill for child support and no sympathy (suck it up).

A MGTOW who has walked away from relationships assures himself of less drama, less need to overwork and more time to tend to his own needs instead of everyone else’s It is an opportunity for growth and wisdom should the MGTOW take advantage of it. The man can for the first time become a “human being” instead of a “human doing”. He can value himself because no one else will unconditionally value him. He is only valued for what he can do for others.

It can be a challenging path initially because it is natural for men to want to compete for women and it does take insight to see this is to the genes’ advantage and not to his personal advantage. Women for their part like men to be competing for them. That is a driver for chivalry and for white feathering in war (especially in WWI) (no fight no nooky). The lack of a desire of some men to fight over women is frightening to many women. It forces women to face up to their biological selves.

Women have responded to this threat of seeing themselves in the mirror by constructing such narratives as the “rape culture” hysteria. Here women can legitimately express a fear, real but exaggerated and goad men to fight other men, to become a white knight for her. A case of “them over there are the enemies, go get them (and to the victor goes the mating rights). Let and him fight over pretty old me.” The reaction of women to MGTOW is predictable. This analysis is consistent with thinking in evolutionary psychology.

I really do not anything offensive in my reply. I can only imagine that a group of feminists have done a working bee to downvote as many MGTOW replies as possible. A sufficient number of downvotes triggers a “collapse”. Quora for its part is going along with the pressure. Real intimidation and bullying.

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Quick update on my “missing black dog”.

Soon after starting this blog I wrote that my shift on my views away from feminism and becoming a critic of it a recovering feminist or where has the black dog has gone.

In that post I said that one unexpected result of my break with feminism was the lifting of my tendency to depression, my black dog had gone. I identified 2 possible causes. One was that this could be a temporary euphoria like that experienced by members joining a new church. The second possible cause was the permanent, the “getting a monkey off one’s back”. From that post is this excerpt.

The first is that I have experienced an endorphin rush of the kind reported by new members of a charismatic church. That is a short lived drug which soon quietens down. The second explanation is that I have shaken a monkey off my back and can walk now with less weight on my feet. This is often reported by people who have left religion evangelical churches and the Catholic Church.

I made 2 predictions of different outcomes which would confirm either the first or the second and falsify the other.

If my remission from depression is of the first kind then it will soon pass and the black dog will return soon enough. If my remission is of the second type then it will be a more permanent and and will mark a different psyche reality for me.

After several years I can confirm that my improved mental health was and continues to e of the second sort. That I feel better not carrying around the luggage of of an ideology of lies and contradictions. I have not sunk to the depths that were  sometimes part of my life. In retrospect I am amazed one, at how many aspects of religion feminism resembles and to a cultish degree and two how pervasive, all encompassing and influential it is. Coming out of feminism is like emerging from a cult boot camp. I look back and I are just in awe that this included me.

Meanwhile in the wider world family courts continue to do damage, boys are “blue eyed” as per the Jane Elliot experiment in the 1960s, men are forced to atone and confess for the “sin” of being male. Campuses are setting up “snitching” procedures to dob in “politically incorrect” influences on campus. The Starsi moves west. The legal system is being undermined by calls to make prosecutions easier for crimes real and imagined. It is bizarre and in the future we will look back with as much incredulity and horror as we look back  at previous witch hunts. How could so many be so blind and so cruel deluded that they were doing good.

The controversial public intellectual Jordan Peterson has stated that the inability to live with cognitive dissonance and the enforced requirement to do so is a large of mental health problems. I relived myself of so much of that in cutting here from a toxic ideology. Peterson sees the similarity between the rise of dangerous ideologies in the 20th century and trends in today’s post modern informed movements. He sees ideological movements as filling a vacuum created in people lives by rapid changes over the last few centuries which have destroyed much of what was meaningful before. He sets out a road map in his Youtube series and his book “Maps of Meaning”. I do not agree with everything Peterson says but he is compulsive listening.

For myself I take a great deal of interest in Stoicism and philosophy in general. It was my interest in philosophical questions which led me to Peterson’s work. I have listened to some audio books he assigns to his students. In considering the insights by Dostoyevsky and Nietzsche among others compared to the noise coming from feminists and other SJWs one can see the proverb “Empty vessels make the most noise” at work in real life. 

The Jaw Dropping Tweet about #FalseAccusations

FalseAccusations

There is hardly anything which needs to be said about the above tweet. It displays a callousness and a lack of empathy for others, at least those others who are not members of her “approved groups”. It almost revels in false accusations and a complete disregard that false accusations are actually a criminal offence, even if they are not often prosecuted.

She is also too honest revealing more about herself than perhaps she realised or intended. What could be the agenda of someone who would tweet in these terms? One can speculate.

One thing which can be said is that historically a great many of the falsely accused were black men in the US south during the Jim Crow era with its lynch mob justice.

ListenBelieve.jpg

This is what #ListenAndBelieve looked like the last time around. This was an earlier  “rape culture” hysteria The tweeter, to use the language of SJWs, is “othering” black male victims of false accusations. The central plot point of To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee is a false accusation of rape against Tom Robinson. A book which could not be written today because it would be “politically incorrect”.

What does this say about feminists? It says they not believe that justice should be denied to black men. Rather feminists believe that all men should face the same injustices which were faced by black men. Equal opportunity lynching. Lynch mobs which do not discriminate on the basis of race. Bringing ALL men down the horrors met out to black men in an earlier era.

This all highlights the dangers of racism for those opposing feminists. This only serves the interests of feminists. Men fighting each other instead of facing feminists with their lies and double standards. Unfortunately the rise of Islamic terror sets men against men in exactly a way which advantages feminists. I will talk about racism and nationalism in a future post.

The FLDS (Fundamentalist Later Day Saints)

Everyone is aware of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints AKA the Mormons or the LDS with their crisply ironed white shirts and their magical underwear door knocking in pairs. Most people know the story of Joseph Smith visited by the archangel Moroni presenting the golden plates to be read with sear stones and transcribed before the golden plates disappeared. They are a Christian sect with some beliefs beyond what is normally expected from Christians including a multi-worlds multi gods cosmos, a Semitic origin for native Americans, polygamy (in the early days) and the baptism of the dead. I am thankful for the last one because I have found their giant family research database useful for my family research. These are the run of the mill Mormons we all know and love and probably like to laugh at occasionally. Not quite mainstream or really out of it either. Some other Christians may not consider Mormons to be “true” Christians but even so they do not register too high on the cultometre. The Mormons are just a bit amusing.

Fewer people are aware that beyond the run of the mill Mormons there exists a group of Mormons dialed up to 11 known as the Fundamentalist Later Day Saints or the FLDS. This group is way out there. Waaaaaaay way out there maxing out the cultometre.

One defining feature of Mormons in the 19th century was plural marriage. This issue of polygamy seems to have been the point of contention causing the FLDS to split off from mainstream Mormons. In the late 19th century the Mormons reversed the church’s position on polygamy and endorsed monogamy.

It seems to me that the behaviour of the FLDS mirrors exactly that of some animals. That is it is not the religious doctrine which causes the behaviour and beliefs of the FLDS such as polygamy. Rather it is deep brain behaviour borne of evolutionary psychology and rooted in pre-human ancestry which gives rise to the to the religious beliefs and practices.

The present leader is Warren Jeffs. He is like a dominant male of a lion pride. All the females are his and young males are chased away. This is exactly the behaviour of a lion pride. How does this relate to human society? Homo sapiens are imperfectly monogamous . The monogamy/polygamy tendency is related to the dimorphism of the species. For example in elephant seals the dimorphism is extreme and so is the polygamy. Most male elephant seals will never reproduce. However the “sneaky male” strategy as an alternative to the “alpha male” strategy can sometimes result in lower caste males reproducing. Waiting in the shallows off the beach for their chance. How successful either strategy is depends on the environmental context which will favour one or the other and keep a mix of both at an equilibrium. Lower caste males can have some reproductive advantages considering they do not get into fights as often and their numbers can overwhelm the dominance of the alphas. Baboon society is an interplay of competing factors in which different mating strategies can have an advantages at one time and can have a disadvantage at other times. Evolutionary fitness is often a game of “paper, rock scissors”. The possible complexities are nowhere better seen than in human society.

It is east to see where polygamous species become dimorphic. With males competing with each other size is an advantage. More muscle to shove aside other males. Additionally females will prefer larger males because they can protect both them and their offspring.

Lion society has a lower level of dimorphism than elephant seals but it is still present. Humans have a lower level of dimorphism again. Humans have a number of mating strategies but in general can be described as “imperfectly monogamous”. With humans we can certainly see the “sneaky male” strategy. In fact much of the “crime and punishment” hysteria may stem from an ancient pre-human deep brain repertoire being a “dominant male” “protecting” his females being directly his wife, daughters and by sympathetic extension all women in the “in” tribe from marauding males outside. Activating this ancient repertoire is always a sure vote winner for political candidates. Male voters naturally want to protect their “harem” being their wives and daughters and this instinct can encompass a degree of racism, conscious or unconscious. Female voters want a “strong leader” who will “protect” them and their offspring. Ultimately this instinct can scale all the way up to war, genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Most people may be alarmed at the excesses of Warren Jeffs and the FLDS may be to the point of invoking the same protective instinct in them as Warren Jeffs and the FLDS community as a whole feel. They see religious fundamentalism, pederasty and cult like control of the members and understandably so. What most people fail to realize is the extant of biology at play. Yes there is a power crazed leader and the pederasty and the cultish control but this is playing out not because of a crazed religious environment. Rather the environment emerges because deeper and darker biological repertoires are at work and the FDLS is a result of the madness and not the cause.

The Assimilation of Aborigines compared to the War on Boys

From the 1930s until the 1960s and even into the early 1970s successive Australian governments had a policy of assimilation. It was believed that aborigines were going to die out. Under assimilation policies the incomes of aboriginal people were garnished and held by the Protector of Aborigines. Pocket money change was paid to the aborigines. Major expenditures like travel or to buy a car needed the approval of the Protector of Aborigines. In recent decades the monies kept in trust is unaccounted for. Additionally their wages were lower and there was segregation in the use of public facilities. In Perth aborigines needed to vacate the city before the evening. The people lived on missions looked after by religious missionaries or government bureaucrats.

A part of the policy was removing half caste children, that is children of mixed European and aboriginal parentage, away from missions and families and putting the children up for adoption. The workers in the church, on the missions, in government departments were certain that “it was all for the best”, “think of the child.”, “a mission is no place for a child”. The heartbreak involved formed part of the tragedy of what was called the Stolen Generation.  The child removalists believed themselves to be noble and righteous. They cared for the welfare of the aboriginal peoples. But they were absolutely certain of their cause to the extent that that they were blind to their own humanity as well as being blind to the plight of the heartbreak left in their wake. These do gooders prided themselves on being more morally upright than those who brought atrocities including mass killings in conflict between European settlers and aborigines in the 19th century. These do gooders social worker analogues sawed themselves as giving palliative care to a dying people. At the base of this kind palliative care for a dying people was a chauvinism about the “advanced” peoples, social Darwinism, sometimes eugenics and an absolute certainty that what they were doing was the right thing. It goes without saying that there was no need to listen to the aboriginal people themselves. “You’ve got to be cruel to be kind” and “tough love”.

This is the same absolute certainty which is seen today in the treatment of men and boys. When Erza Klein asserts “spike of fear” in a Breitbart article Ezra Klein: Men Need ‘Spike of Fear’ with Sex to Prevent Rape or when Catherine Comins asserts that “Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.” we are seeing people who really honestly believe that it’s “for their own good” and if a few eggs have to be broken to broken to make scrambled eggs then so be it. In this and in the Stolen Generation one’s won humanity is put to one side in service to a high ideal. One outs aside empathy and compassion. This is the effect of being blinded by the light of an ideology. In the USA countless cases of male students having their college studies terminated and their lives ruined because of the abuse of Title IX for minor, silly or actually fabricated cases of harassment. The same logic of Klein and Comins could be used to justify miscarriages of justice of say black men in the Jim Crow south because sending a “spike of fear” into those scumbags will improve public safety. There is a ruthlessness in Comins and Klein which would be rightfully condemned if made in any other circumstance. In fact there is the cold efficiency of fascism echoing with no regard to the consequences and the only reaction if any is usually laughter at the plight of unlucky males.

That brings us to the unpleasant potential for escalating the cruelty against men and boys. There is laughter at the abuse of men by women and an impatience with their pain, even as feminism complain that “men need to learn to express their feelings” (so that we can shut you up again). One thinks of what it took to get ordinary Germans to commit extraordinary abuses on others. We can gain a clue to what motivates other people by observing ourselves. Insight into ourselves. Something feminists avoid by projecting on to others that which they fear exists in themselves. There is a certain point in the slide into hate where no appeal to logic or common sense can help and will not be allowed to help and where the mere reluctance to join the hate movement makes one a suspect. The “spike of fear”. Erza Klein may wish to live in such a society but I do not.

Not all men will be treated unfairly, they will only fear that they may be so mistreated. Basically men can be “protectors” of the paranoid delusions of extreme feminists or they can look forward to be persecuted by those men who are. To be one of the “protectors” or one of the persecuted at the hands to a “protector”. If you’re one not one you must automaticly be the other, the hated other. This is the utopia that feminists want to deliver all of us to but I get the sense that we have been there and done it all before in lessons of history we have now all forgotten.

I will end this post with an image meme which speaks for itself.

Julie Burchill2

Genghis Khan – The Alpha Male of all Alpha Males Ever

Genghis Khan

The Genghis Khan Monument near Ulan Batar in Mongolia

We have all heard about  Genghis Khan emperor conquered a vast territory and and established a huge empire. He had a reputation for genocide and also for his prolific fathering. Today the great khan has a total of 16 million Y chromosome descendants or 0.5% of all males globally. The size of the monument of the good Khan pictured above does indeed reflect his genetic contribution to the human gene pool.

This was the conclusion of a study described in the National Geographic. This is an extraordinary progeny. But these 16 million men carrying Genghis Khan’s Y chromosome does not even begin to describe demographics of his genetic heritage.

In fact the 16 million men who share Genghis Khan’s Y chromosome are only a tiny percentage of all the descendants of Genghis Khan. Simple arithmetic makes this clear.

I will assume the reader is male. If in fact you the reader is female then consider yourself a honorary male for the purposes of this thought experiment.

How many biological parents do you have? Two is the usual answer. I will use the notation 2^x. Two parents would be 2^1. Yourself are generation 0. There is just one of you or 2^0.

How parents have your Y chromosome? One of two, 1 in two or 1/2^1 at the -1 generation.

How many grandparents do you have? Four or 2^2. How many of your grandparents have your Y chromosome? One of four, or 1/2^2 at the -2 generation.

How many great grandparents do you have? Eight or 2^3.  How many of your great grandparents have your Y chromosome? One of eight, or 1/2^3 at the -3 generation.

How many great great grandparents do you have? Sixteen or 2^4. How many of your great great grandparents have your Y chromosome? One of sixteen , or 1/2^4 at the -4 generation.

If we go back to the -10 generation we have 2^10 ancestors or 1,024 at that level. How many of these ancestors have your Y chromosome? 1/2^10. One of 1,024. Another way to look at this is to ask of all a man’s descendants at +10 generations into the future will have his Y chromosome? The is 1/2^10. About 1 in a thousand of his descendants at the +10 generation will have his Y chromosome.

The next question to ask how many generations have passed since Genghis Khan? It is not possible to know this. If 20 generations have passed then the total number of descendants including both Y chromosome descendants and non Y chromosome descendants alike will be 16 million multiplied by 10^20 or about one million. That is 16 trillion descendants at the +20 generation level. If 30 generations have passed then the total number increases to 16 quadrillion. 16,000,000 X 2^30 (1 billion).

These are impossible numbers and obviously many descendants of Genghis Khan have married many other descendants of Genghis Khan. These would not likely include Europeans or Africans. Large areas of Asia however would be descendants pretty well down to the last one. The 16 million Y chromosome descendants does not tell the whole story of the Khan’s legacy.

At this point the ancestor paradox becomes obvious. That is the number of ancestors increases exponentially with each generation back so that your number of ancestors exceeds the world’s population with fewer than 30 generations into the past. 2^30 is approximately 1 billion. The world’s population only exceeded 1 billion people in 1804. For someone like myself with English, Scottish, Cornish and Irish ancestry this really means I am descended from every reproducing person alive in Britain at the time of Edward I and probably most of Europe as well. This would include Edward I himself down to the lowest peasant. One and only one of these will be my Y chromosome ancestor.

Asian males living in the time of Genghis Khan would on average have hundreds of millions of descendants living today or perhaps billions but would have only between 10 to 20 Y chromosome descendants today.

The behaviour of Genghis Khan very anomalous indeed. The alpha male of all alpha males ever. “Kill all the men and rape all the women” certainly describes him. He killed about 10% of the world’s population at the time including half of the population of China. This is deeply biological behaviour turned up to ten. Maximising his genetic advantage. No animal in the wild would garner such an advantage on such a scale but humans can capitalise on simple technology to greatly magnify their natural mating advantages or perhaps even supplants natural disadvantages. In this way slightly dimorphic homo sapiens can exert a polygamous advantage like that of male elephant seals.

Social constructs can not alone explain this sort of behaviour. It is the genes of Genghis Khan which benefit from this behaviour and it is the genes which drives this behaviour. The Mongol Empire was an alpha male’s way of propagating his genes or more precisely the alpha male’s genes’ way of propagating themselves.

In Genghis Khan we see analogues of animal behaviour. This we can expect because homo sapiens are animals. Apes actually. We have have inherited our behaviour from evolutionary ancestors. We did not lose our biological inheritance at the neck up. A lion pride is a well known example of a polygamous species. Humans are not as polygamous as lions but in the record of the the great khan we do see an example which exceeds the norm for human males. With basic technology human alpha males have vastly exceeded what would be expected by the degree of dimorphism in humans.

A male lion pride owner has the job of propagating himself and protecting such progeny with his life if necessary. If his mating rights are overthrown by a younger stronger male lion the first job at hand is the killing or chasing away the old lion followed by killing his progeny in a very bloody affair. This is Genghis Khan, Jacob, David, Solomon and the sultans and emperors of various empires through history with their harems and frequently bloody successions. For the human alpha the animal behaviour is shielded probably even from the alpha male himself behind a lot nationalistic, moral ennobling or religious spin doctoring.

Examples like Genghis Khan illustrate the importance of biology in human biology and that is at odds with the social construct model of human behaviour. A Genghis Khan can not be socially constructed. A Genghis Khan is energised from deeper levels. The cerebral cortex does not create him as much as filter deeper instincts with some culture and a good justifying story for the expression of those instincts culturally shaped though they may be. We will realise darker angels of our nature in unexpected ways if we continue to deny the importance of the biological.

Young fatherhood may be a risk factor for early death

This post is inspired by an article “Fatherhood in Early 20s May Raise Risk of Midlife Death” at

http://m.livescience.com/51734-early-fatherhood-midlife-death.html

The article can be summarised by one sentence from it as reproduced below.

In the large Finnish study, researchers found that men who had their first child by age 22 were 26 percent more likely to die in middle age, compared with men who fathered their first child at age 25 or 26

The article doesn’t go into the reasons other then some speculation that the education and careers of young fathers being short circuited and thus being forced to support his family with lower paying and more dangerous work.

“…interrupt career plans and push young dads into lower-paying jobs, which could impair their health”

The factors will not known without further research but the results suggest that fatherhood and family life in general takes a toll on men. There are many stresses associated with family life and men generally have few resources and few people who will want to listen. “Be a man”, “suck it up” and “man up” are common put downs while the problems of women in general and mothers in particular are acknowledged.

This caused my brain to recognise a pattern. That this that since the 1960s and 70s the difference in life expectancy between men and women has narrowed from a maximum of 7 years in favour of women to 4.2 in 2014 in favour of women. In the period 1975-7 the average life expectancy of men in Australia at birth was 69.6 years and for women it was 76.6 years, a difference of 7 years. See

http://abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/Lookup/4102.0Main+Features10Mar+2011

Fast forward to 2014 statistics the life expectancy for men is 80.1 years and for women it was 84.3 years. See http://www.aihw.gov.au/deaths/life-expectancy/

Over this period the median age of first marriage has increased. See

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/2f762f95845417aeca25706c00834efa/a8d1bea8a2ff1b33ca2570ec001b0dc3!OpenDocument

This is a graph from the above site.

AusFirstMarriageThe observant reader would have noticed on the tables of the previous web pages listed that the  difference in life expectancy between men and women was narrow near the end of the 19th century and widening out to the 1970s before narrowing again towards today. This widening of the difference in life expectancy in the 1970s mirrors the dip in the median age of first marriage in Australia. See

AusLifeExpect

I can guess that the age of fatherhood would bare some relationship with the median age of marriage. It looks like that early marriage and early fatherhood are health compromising choices for men. If that is the case the Finnish study linking early fatherhood to more likely early death of males does not surprise me.

This highlights the need for more study of mens health issues in general. Trends in mens health are occurring under the radar without comment or interest. The narrowing in the gap of life expectancy for men and women is good news for men. The reason as I can see may be worrying for policy makers. The implications for the value of marriage for men and its cost in terms of the health of men are areas researchers should take an interest in. The implications for the MGTOW movement are obvious although I will not talk about MGTOW in this blog.